Kids
I've been chatting with different friends of mine that are couples recently and have asked, do you want kids? And the thing that has shocked me is that most of them have said they aren't sure.
I cannot remember a time when I didn't know that I wanted kids some day. To me it has just been an inevitability. Who knows, maybe it was social conditioning. Maybe the world told me that when I grow up and become an adult I was supposed to buy a house and have two kids. Maybe I bought it, hook, line and sinker. But all I know is that all along, I've been very excited about this future. There is no doubt, no wonder, no question: I want kids someday. And I want a lot of them! It baffles me when people don't feel the same way as me on this issue (well, let's be serious, really on any issue), what's wrong with them?!
I haven't always wanted a lot, and I do remember when that changed. It was while watching the first 5 minutes of Cheaper by the Dozen. At that point I said I wanted eight, though I would have been happy with 12, I was just being conservative.
Really it should be no surprise that I want a lot of kids: I grew up with my best friends coming from just the neighboring two houses, with 4 kids each. I couldn't get enough of those eight kids, won't it be the same with my own!? Now the ol' neighborhood has even more kids in it and honestly, it still doesn't feel like enough. The more the merrier!
Now, one of my friends just had a baby and she thinks I'm crazy and that I'll definitely change my mind about the number I want once I have my first (though really, how often do I change my mind about these sorts of things?). And that would sure be a bummer, wouldn't it? Who wants to let go of their dreams? So, I think the only solution is to go the Jon & Kate Plus 8 route. Let's just have them all in one go!
I'm only kidding, let's not get carried away. How about two at a time? In all seriousness, if a doctor could promise me genetically healthy but completely identical twins, I'd consider paying a great deal of money for that. I think 2 or 3 sets of identical twins might be the way to go.
Now if identical twins isn't possible, I'd settle on fraternal twins. I guess. *sigh*
While we're dreaming, I'd like them to all be handsome, beautiful kids. But not until they turn 22; there's no greater curse than peaking too early. It just goes to your head. Better to peak late, get that nice, interesting personality and then become drop dead gorgeous! They'll of course be good at sports and at school. Oh! And super funny! Basically, I'd like each and every one of my 5-12 kids to be candidates for the award for the greatest human being alive. Just like their father. Ooh! And their mother!
Luckily I've found a life-partner that practically feels the exact same way as me (she only wants 3 of the little rascals)!
Now, I like to dream about the future, and when I dream these days, I tend to make pretty specific plans (it's nice to have something concrete to look forward to). At this point, I know when I want to start having kids, but the wifey hates it when I publicize this information (something about how sometimes getting pregnant isn't always something you can just do whenever you want to, and we don't want to have to explain to people what happened), so for her sake I'll keep that information to ourselves. Well, us and everyone I've told already. Seriously, if you ask me in person some time, I'd be glad to share it with you! But I can give you 3 hints: 1) the sooner the better, 2) it wouldn't make sense to have a baby when the future-mother is going to school full-time and 3) there are certain times of the year that are better for this sort of thing. So do the math yourselves! (I'm probably going to get in trouble for this tomorrow morning, when Keri wakes up. Uh oh. Maybe just nobody tell her about this post!)
Here's to passing on my genetic code by planting my seed in the fertile earth of at least one woman*!
* at this point, it is just one, very specific woman!
17 February 2011 09:08am UTC • 274 views • 15 comments
Tagged with kids, future, family, life
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15 comments
Erik the Redish-orange
17 February 2011 06:02pm UTC
I wasn't sure if I wanted to comment on this. Mostly because Benj and Keri have heard my thoughts a lot recently and Keri in particular gets tired of me being cynical. So, I'll try not to be cynical but will also acknowledge up front that I have some very cynical feelings about children and parenting right now.
I always figured I'd be a parent. And, still in my heart of hearts if you strip away all the cynicism I think I want to have kids. But I am less and less certain I will.
For one, I am 30 years old and very very single. Right now I want to remain single for a good period of time into the future. I do not think 30 is all that old, and I also realize it is very normal for people to have children with someone who is a different age than them. But, women over 35 are considered high risk pregnancy. Which means that unless I end up with someone several years younger than me I have 5 years (maybe 7 or 8 if my mate is younger) to meet someone, date, fall in love, get married, and have all of our children before they are high risk. Considering I am not very interested in being in a relationship right now, that seems like a tall order for the next 5-8 years.
Lots of women have children when they are over 35. But I am not sure I am up for that. For one, kids require a lot of time and energy. I feel like I have less and less of both. Two, I am not sure I am emotionally mature enough, strong enough, or selfless enough to handle raising a child with special needs. And those risks go up in older women.
Which brings me to my biggest fear. Children are something you pour your life into. Once you get pregnant your life is never the same. Your time is not yours. Your money is not yours. You can't do the things you used to do. You have to change. And I am sure that those changes can be rewarding and fulfilling. But what if you make all those changes and things don't work out the way you want? What if you have a child who will never be able to care for itself? Or what if you do your best as a parent and your kid makes a mistake and ends up in jail. What if your kid turns out to have the IQ of Forest Gump? What if your kid turns out to be a total jerk? What if, God forbid, you outlive your child? There are so many ways you could pour your life into this other human being and it could go wrong.
I guess I'm just not convinced it's worth it.
I enjoy kids. But I like being able to give them back. When they are yours there is no escaping. There is no changing your mind. There is no realizing you weren't ready or you hadn't prepared adequately. There is no forgetting or fudging or putting off. You are stuck with it.
Forever.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that I am excited for Benjamin and Keri to have kids. I am excited to see them and play with them and love them. And I am excited for them to be yours and not mine.
The Anonymous Poppy
18 February 2011 07:20am UTC
What a great comment, Erik! I agree with a lot of what you just said. Specifically, the part about fear and uncertainty. That's a large part of why I don't want to have any children.
So, I really hope no one in my family still visits this site (though I know that they do know about it), because this comment would concern and disappoint them enormously. But I have (fairly recently) allowed myself to come to the conclusion that I really, really don't want to ever get married or have kids. I've spent most of my life feeling like I have to do these things, that they're just inevitable, largely because they are viewed as non-negotiable in the culture that I was raised in. It's not just "what you do," it's what you're supposed to do. It's what being alive is all about: getting married and procreating and raising your kids to do the same thing. I know my family is already confused and disappointed in me for not being married yet, I think more than they even realize that they are. I have no intention of ever sharing this decision with any of them. (I am an extremely dishonest person, as I'm sure most of you know.)
Anyway, being raised with such a strong and specific expectation, I never really felt like I was allowed to want anything different. It never occurred to me that I didn't actually want those things until well after I graduated from college. I mean, I kind of knew that I didn't want them, but I didn't know that I didn't want them, if that makes sense. But I've never liked being around babies. Or children, really. The younger they are, the weirder and less comfortable I feel. The idea of being responsible for raising one is revolting to my mind. The idea of being responsible for creating life -- for giving a person life and then having to be in contact with that person forever -- well, it's practically unbearable. How could I inflict life on a person? Life is mostly awful! (And the depression and pessimism that lead to comments like that seem to be genetic, so how could I risk passing on so much misery to my hypothetical children?)
I do like teenagers, though. I adore them, actually. I have had idle thoughts about fostering or adopting teens when I'm a bit older.
And then on the other hand, whenever I think about how I don't want kids, I feel really selfish. Like, a big part of my not wanting children is the negative ways that they would affect my lifestyle and happiness. Even though I make lots of decisions in order to increase my happiness and perpetuate the lifestyle to which I have become accustomed that are probably also really selfish decisions in many ways, this decision seems particularly selfish. It's like our society is somehow telling me that I owe it to them to procreate or something. That I'm letting everyone down by not having kids. Which isn't true! I know it's not. But sometimes it's hard to shake the feeling.
My feelings about marriage evolved similarly, but I've realized that I'm kind of word-vomiting my issues all over your blog now, Benji, so I'll try to keep it to the topic at hand.
Even thought I don't want kids, and I can't really understand why anyone would, I'm glad some people do! And not only so that our species doesn't die out (like we're at any risk of that happening). Mostly because I'm glad that different things make different people happy. And I'm glad that we're talking about how we all see these things differently. That seems like a really good idea to me. :)
Swabie Scabbie
18 February 2011 03:13pm UTC
I love this post, and I love the responses! I'm going to throw my hat in with the anti-babyists, and while I share some of their reasons for not wanting kids, the main factors contributing to my preference are different.
My main deterrent from wanting kids is their effect on the planet. Having consumption habits of a fairly average American, my ecological footprint is huge. And I'm positive I consume more than I produce (I've produced almost nothing in the last 26 years). Plus, if I had kids, most of my free time and brain power would be devoted to them, whether they had important things going on in their lives or not. I know I'd be more consumed by the minutiae of their lives than the important questions I'd encounter at work that could be answered with good research. I know everyone has to balance work and a personal life, but I'd like my fulcrum to sit much closer to work than home life. It seems like most of my family feels this way, and it was kind of torturous to watch my parents sacrifice things that I perceived as much more important than my sports matches and supervision to ensure I didn't burn down the house or electrocute myself while I was growing up.
Fortunately, there are plenty of babies in the world without me. Like, billions of them. And many of them don't have basics, like vitamin A, clean water and quality education. I think if I play my cards right, I can have a much greater impact on more babies by focusing on other people's kids instead of having my own.
Swabie Scabbie
18 February 2011 03:18pm UTC
And Erik, high risk pregnancies over age 35 are actually risks of ~1/250 (for Down Syndrome, the most common genetic abnormality). Even women over 45 only have ~1/20 risk. Plus, there are pretty good screening tests for Down (and other genetic syndromes) now that detect over 90% of cases in the first or second trimester of pregnancy.
Dread Pirate Benjamin
18 February 2011 10:37pm UTC
Huh, well thanks for dampening my spirits guys!
And Poppy, I find it interesting that you feel selfish for not having kids. I feel the exact opposite! For the a lot of the reasons Blair mentioned (we really do have enough people already), plus I think having kids is just sort of an inherently selfish act. A person is going to pass on their genes, and then have a small person be literally completely dependent on them for at least a good 10-15 years. As much as your life is all about them, their life is all about you.
So, I don't think it is selfish at all to not have kids!
Dread Pirate Benjamin
18 February 2011 11:59pm UTC
Though really, my spirits haven't been dampened! But we need some of the pro-babyists to represent here!
Ariel Swordfish
19 February 2011 06:04am UTC
I will join your bandwagon, Benji! I would like to have kids! Two sounds about right!
My reasons are similar in feel to yours. I grew up in a big family with lots of cousins; my mom had 13 brothers and sisters, and my dad has four brothers. It was always such a great time when we would get together, whether I was the youngest or the oldest of the bunch. There was always such a sense of camaraderie within my family, and so I have always been very close to them. Because of this, having kids has just seemed like the right thing to do, and more so than that, what I would like to happen at some point in my life.
Sailing Master Keri
19 February 2011 04:43pm UTC
More thoughts from another pro-babyist! As Dread Pirate mentioned in his post, I want to have kids too! It's something I've wanted my whole life, and I've never really questioned it. A lot of you anti-babyists make good points about the world already having enough people and trying to reduce your ecological footprint. I think those are very intelligent, mature thoughts, but if all the intelligent people on this planet decide to opt out of having kids for the sake of the planet, where will that leave the planet? The stupid people are going to continue having kids, regardless of the size of the planet, so we need the intelligent people to have kids to counteract the stupid ones! I guess I'm implying that Dread Pirate and I are part of the "intelligent" group, but what I really mean is that we plan to be totally committed to raising our kids to be the best they can be. Kids that will hopefully help the future of our planet, instead of hurt it.
On another note, since so many of our friends have decided not to have kids, this gives us an excuse to have more than 2! Once during a conversation with Astronomer Katelin, she implied that it is bad for the planet for us to have more than 2 kids since we would be doing more than just replacing ourselves. But now we can just start replacing Erik the Reddish-orange, Anonymous Poppy, and Swabie Scabbie!
Erik the Redish-orange
19 February 2011 05:29pm UTC
First of all, I'd like to say that I don't like this "pro-babyist" term that is being bandied about. I realize it is a totally different subject, but it's like the term "pro life." I hate that term. Because to me the opposite of it is "anti-life." And, really, who is anti-life?
I am pro-baby. Just maybe not of my own. And, as I said I suspect I still will want to have kids someday. But I feel at this point in my life it is prudent to start thinking it may not happen.
As for the Sailing Master's point about intelligent people choosing not to reproduce, I do think that is an interesting twist on the whole evolution and survival of the fittest thing. It is pretty self-righteous to say so, but I believe that the world would be better off with more me's and way fewer of the people I graduated from high school with who already have 5 kids they can't support.
But there are lots of ways to have an impact on future generations besides having kids. I think a good argument could be made that if you do something well that impacts the world in a positive way (say coaching high schoolers for instance), and you have children, then chances are you may not have the time, energy, and desire to do that thing as well as you are capable. Then, while your children are well off, what about those kids you used to be impacting but are not able to reach in the same way any more?
I know I have changed lives through my coaching. Swabie changes lives as a doctor. Is our impact greater because we can focus on those other people without having to worry about our own children than it would be otherwise?
The Anonymous Poppy
19 February 2011 10:13pm UTC
I'm surprised that you're surprised that I would feel selfish for not having kids, Benji! I feel like that is the criticism that is leveled against child-free people most often, that they're just being selfish. Because it is so obviously so much easier to live without children.
It doesn't seem selfish to me at all to choose to have a small person be dependent on you for several years. I've always considered that to be an enormous burden, not a perk of parenting. Though actually, it seems kind of creepy to want another person to be completely dependent on you. (I mean, especially when they can't agree to it and have no power in the relationship. I'm totes okay with consenting adults getting into relationships like that.)
I'm also not sure what you mean by "As much as your life is all about them, their life is all about you." My life has never in any way been all about my parents. I've spent a huge amount of energy trying to hide my inner life from my parents, for as far back into my childhood as I can remember. (I'm one of those people who was born a sulky adolescent. No wonder I love teenagers so much.) I often make choices that further remove my parents from participation in my life. And I'd consider myself to have a positive, loving relationship with my parents; I'm in no way estranged from them or even particularly resentful about anything. But the focus of my life has always been way more about me than about them.
Swabie Scabbie
20 February 2011 05:08am UTC
I love this thread! I want to address two issues raised today: stupid reproducers overtaking the world and the term anti-babyist (which I like).
When I first watched Idiocracy, I thought it was more scary than funny. But upon further reflection I realized that successful people don't seem to be the smartest people around, but rather the smartest people born into the best situations. I think a lot of teen parents are people with fine genes and brains who just grew up in an environment that led to their (in my opinion) premature parenthood. So I don't worry about a future world populated by the offspring of teen parents and undocumented immigrants (which, according to my patient census while on OB at our local county hospital, are growth sectors). There are plenty of good genes in the rapidly populating pools. I do worry about a world where the thought leaders are totally engrossed in their own kids' well being and willfully ignorant of the situations of kids they don't see in their home. But, once again, the anti-babyists probably have more time and energy to become those thought leaders...
As for the terms "anti-babyist" and "pro-babyist," I'll put myself down as staunchly pro-anti-babyist. First, it poses me in opposition to those in favor of having babies (aka: babyists), not the babies themselves (aka: babies). Perhaps more importantly, it sounds close enough to "pro-life" to invoke the baggage associated with that loaded term, but also sounds ridiculous enough to highlight the absurdity of using such charged terms in thoughtful debate. At least it may have until I wrote that last sentence. Now it'll probably just come across as pretentious.
Dread Pirate Benjamin
20 February 2011 05:38am UTC
Well, my "their life is all about you" comment was really more about young children, and mostly had to do with the fact that children are completely dependent on their parents for everything. And specifically, if you're scared, hurt, hungry, thirsty, tired (and a thousand other emotions) when your young, who do you want? Your parents!
Obviously, I don't have kids, so at this point anything I say is mostly pure conjecture and the parts that aren't are from what I remember from being a kid.
Also, building on the topic of helping the world, I don't think Keri was saying that having kids is the only way to be a positive force in the world. And certainly, I doubt it is the way to do the most of that. But personally, I don't really care about that sort thing. You know, helping other people. And maybe the fact that I don't care about that sort of thing means I shouldn't have kids because I am a cold, heartless human being. (though I'm vey pro helping my community as I've sort of outlined before: http://thescruffypirate.org/archives/theworldsucks ). but like I said, I think wanting to have kids these days is a selfish act. But damn it! I want them! Plus, I'll be dead in 50-75 years, so hopefully I'll die before our planet runs out of resources and our species dies off at an alarmingly fast rate (click on the picture and read the short comic)!
As for the off spring of teen parents and undocumented immigrants, I don't have much to offer about those categories specifically (as I know nothing about them). But from the stories I've heard from Keri about when she used to work in a public school, I've gathered that there are some pretty bad parents out there. I agree that most kids have the same potential, but I don't think all up-bringing is created equal. I don't know, call me sentimental, but I happen to think that my smart, intelligent, compassionate friends would make better parents than a lot of other ones out there. And in terms of that whole nature vs. nurture debate, I strongly believe that nurture is most likely much more important. It isn't the "genes" I'm worried about!
As an aside, Lisa Volke is visiting us right now, and brought her little 22 month old girl (Lisa, why the crap doesn't she have a TSP account yet?!). And let me tell you! Interacting with really young human beings is scary! I don't know how to do this! And apparently, when you are done hanging out with little kids you aren't just supposed to leave them on the kitchen table. All this talk about us being good parents might just be hot air.... So I guess the timing of this post, while accidental, was quite apt!
Boatswain The Fool
20 February 2011 08:45am UTC
While I was in college, and for the three years thereafter, my dominant thought about children was, "If I have kids, I'll want to be a good parent, which means devoting a lot of time and attention to them. They would become my highest priority. But, I want helping the world to be my highest priority, and I can do more to help the world if I concentrate on that, rather than on taking care of my kids."
This decision sounds pretty good, especially in theory, and it certainly made me feel good to say it to other people: altruistic and thoughtful, non-conformist. It also made me an accidental contributor in other causes, like fighting over-population and protecting the environment, as other people have pointed out here.
It was particularly easy to not want kids when I was in college, and right after I graduated, when it was still too early for me to actually know how I was going to make the world a better place, and nobody I knew that was my age had kids or was even really thinking much about kids in any but abstract terms ("I'm totally going to name my kid, 'Doctor'!). It was basically a free ticket to feeling good about myself.
Over the past couple of years, two things have changed: a) the decision not to have children has adversely affected my ability to be in relationships, and b) I have gained a pretty clear vision of how I can contribute to the world.
a) This decision was a major contributing factor in the ending of my last relationship. And, since then, I have had many conversations with family and friends about the limitations that this decision imposes on prospective significant others' interest in me. People who want to have kids are still in the majority [1], so not wanting to have kids decreases the number of people who would consider dating me, especially as I (and these potential dates) get older, and meeting the right person with whom to procreate becomes more immanent for them. As many people have pointed out to me, my desire to not have children significantly decreases my probability of getting into relationships, if that's something I want.
b) Not only do I see how I can contribute to the world, I feel like I have started doing so. The harder I work, the more things I get done that actually affect a whole lot of people's lives (in a pretty tiny way). And, if I have an awesome idea, or see someone else have an awesome idea, I have a way of getting it to a lot of people quickly. Interestingly, though, a lot of the people I work with, people who have been behind some of the most amazing projects at Google and have touched tons of lives in significant ways, a lot of those people are married and have children. And, they are still innovating and doing incredible things. They just do it during the day and then (unless there is some high-priority issue) go home and spend time with their families (and then maybe do some more work late at night). Now, I don't mean to discount Scabbie's experience with his parents. I'm sure there are a lot of people like them at Google as well. But, it's not the case that every person driven to help the world who starts a family has to make sacrifices in their ideals for the sake of their family. Some people, apparently, can have both.
Because of these changes in my life, the decision to or not to have kids has started to feel like a gamble. If I gamble to have kids, I may miss opportunities to make people's lives better, or maybe I won't make people's lives better either way, or maybe I will either way. If I gamble not to have kids, I may miss out on some wonderful experiences, like maybe a great relationship or having great kids, or maybe I will get into a great relationship anyway, or maybe I will avoid some awful relationships or terrible, patricidal children... It's all possible, and I'm just not good enough at life-math to figure out what's the most probable.
So, I've opted not to make a decision yet.
Of course, in practice, not making a decision is similar to deciding not to have kids. I have my incredible friends and my incredible job, living my incredible life. And, I'm happy to keep doing that for a long time, until something comes up, or one day, as Erik points out, it'll be too late, and I just won't have had kids. Still, non-decision feels safer than deciding not to have kids (even if it's a cop-out). Instead of slamming a door shut, I'm letting it close slowly behind me. Maybe, while it's closing, I'll fall in love with someone and realize that having twelve children is the only way I'll ever be happy, that it's worth the risk, or that really there is no risk, and I was making it up all along.
In the mean time, I'll just keep winning bets against Farluffo about when my next date is going to be. (Hey, Farluffo, once I win our current bet in 9 days, you want to go quadruple or nothing that I won't date before the end of April?)
[1] This is an assumption. I have no data to back this claim up.
Boatswain The Fool
20 February 2011 08:47am UTC
Also, I want to be completely and utterly clear here: I am not anti-babyist. I am anti-baby. Babies are the worst.
Lisa Volke
21 February 2011 05:35am UTC
I'm going to step in as the only person in this conversation with a kid. I've always wanted to be a mom and am so glad I am. There are days and times when I think "I wish I would have waited longer to have kids" so that our friends were having kids (I'm 26 now and she's almost 2).
My only real thing to add to the conversation is this:
DON'T HAVE KIDS UNLESS YOU REALLY WANT THEM!
I can say that kids are a lot of work! My daughter takes up almost all my free time. I can still do things I want to do, but she is my number one priority. She comes before everything else.
As a teacher, I can also say that bad parents come from all kinds of situations. I know great parents with great kids who are living on very little money with little educational background. I know a lot of bad parents with obnoxious, irritating, mean kids whose parents have "good jobs" and plenty of money.
I think these days that kids aren't something that's expected from everyone. I really stress: Don't have kids unless you know you really want them.